[xfreakazoidx]

I was going through some game reviews here (some old, some new) and I notice a trend. While most play a game even if its horrible, others will not even touch a game if theres any hint of...well anything bad...even one swear word.

SO I guess my question is what is everyone's opinion on what we see in games?

Me personally. I've played most popular games out there. Been gaming since good old Atari. Played (supposedly bad games) Doom 3, F.E.A.R., Prototype, Condemned...etc. I guess my view is whats the big deal? Its digital pixels on a screen. Some will say god says we shouldn't play this kinda stuff. But I say, maybe, but he doesn't say you will go to hell if you do play it. Guess thats my rationalization for playing it.

Now heres a problem for me though. Many will say someone is "less christian" if they play these games. My response is what does that make you guys claiming this? For one your judging others. And second when I see someone whos "thumpy", to me they are no better and god is most likely offended. Form everything I've read we are suppose to not be stupid about things. Aka, not live in a bubble. Yet thats what many thumpers tend to do. You can't avoid life, its impossible. Is playing these games bad? Yeah I guess so. But who understands more about the world? The thumper who avoids everything or the gamer who at least lets himself (or herself) learn from this stuff.

A good example is my Pastor did not like that I bought a silly Tiki bobble head. He says it represents evil. But then my old pastor said its ok to try and learn about these things, just as long as you know whats right in the end and don't submit to what your getting into.

Thats how I think about games too. Most christians know its fake and more importantly it doesn't affect them. If a games going to affect you then yeah, its bad. But if it isn't then theres no harm in playing it.

[Red Five]

xfreakazoidx, on 30 July 2010 - 06:44 AM, said:

Me personally. I've played most popular games out there. Been gaming since good old Atari. Played (supposedly bad games) Doom 3, F.E.A.R., Prototype, Condemned...etc. I guess my view is whats the big deal? Its digital pixels on a screen. Some will say god says we shouldn't play this kinda stuff. But I say, maybe, but he doesn't say you will go to hell if you do play it. Guess thats my rationalization for playing it.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you here, just pointing out a flaw in the argument--the fact that it won't send you to hell does not make it okay, especially if you believe that God would not want you to play this kind of stuff.

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Now heres a problem for me though. Many will say someone is "less christian" if they play these games. My response is what does that make you guys claiming this? For one your judging others.

I would not say it is less Christian. People have different reasoning on gray areas like this, and I don't concern myself over people having come to different conclusions than me. I also believe that two people can play the same game, and one would be sinning.

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And second when I see someone whos "thumpy", to me they are no better and god is most likely offended. Form everything I've read we are suppose to not be stupid about things. Aka, not live in a bubble. Yet thats what many thumpers tend to do. You can't avoid life, its impossible. Is playing these games bad? Yeah I guess so. But who understands more about the world? The thumper who avoids everything or the gamer who at least lets himself (or herself) learn from this stuff.

You have to be really careful with this reasoning, though, because more often than not, I see it used as an excuse. People say, "Oh, well, I'm understanding culture," when really they're just being entertained and trying to justify it. I'm not saying it can't be used as a tool to approach culture, but you do have to be careful, and you have to search yourself thoroughly enough to know that that's what you're actually doing.

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Thats how I think about games too. Most christians know its fake and more importantly it doesn't affect them. If a games going to affect you then yeah, its bad. But if it isn't then theres no harm in playing it.

I do agree that if a game, or anything for that matter, is affecting you adversely, then it would be wrong to play it. However, I'll say again that I don't believe that the fact alone that it doesn't affect you isn't reason enough to make it right.
My opinion is adherence to the verse that says, "Everything is permissible, but is it beneficial?" Granted, Paul wrote that as a bit of a frustrated, somewhat satirical response to people in the church trying to get away with sexual immorality; however, I still believe it is a useful measuring stick for this sort of thing. For me, I am very tough on content in video games. I generally do not play M-rated games, and am pretty tough on Teen games as well.
Less so with books and movies. Lately, I've been watching some pretty hard-R stuff. The reason I do this is because I'm a writer trying to understand different fundamentals and techniques of telling a good story. Some of the most brilliant stuff out there has pretty hard content in it, but they have insights I can't really find anywhere else.
Even so, I'm exercising a certain kind of discernment--I generally pass on R-rated movies if they are widely considered to be not good. There's no benefit for me there, so I don't think I need to be absorbing the content.
That's my philosophy anyway, and I can't tell you for sure it's the correct one. Still, I hope this helps.

[Crimian]

When I first signed up for an account on this site, I was around 17-18 (2003-2004) and one of the first things I did was condemn the people here who thought that there was nothing wrong with Harry Potter. I forget exactly what I said was their state, but I was very judgmental and prideful.

You see, I had given up games just a year or so earlier after thinning out my rather vast collection with a series of filters: every game with "dark" supernatural elements went first, then those in which "the good guys" used magic, then those with any supernatural elements, at all. These initial purges left me in an extremely peculiar situation: I had no problem with playing GTA3, but was convinced that Sly Cooper (my first review for this site) was off limits. It equaled out, though, as I began to purge games that had "extreme" language, eventually getting rid of those that had only some very mild language (i.e. not even considered "curse" words). But hyper-violence was still A-OK...until the next purge. Suffice it to say that I ended up having very stringent parameters for what constituted "righteous" entertainment as opposed to the seething evil of, say, an average (classic) Disney movie. I then felt led to give them up entirely, which was probably the only time I truly heard from God during this whole process; I obeyed, giving my systems to various kids I knew who would not have normally been able to get them. At the time I joined this site, all of this was still fresh, although I had been released from my "time of separation."

Romans 14 said:

¹Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. ²One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. ³The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. ⁴Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ... ²⁰Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. ²¹It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall. ²²So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. ²³But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

1 Corinthians 8 said:

¹Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. ²The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. ³But the man who loves God is known by God. ⁴So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. ⁵For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), ⁶yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

⁷But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. ⁸But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

⁹Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. ¹⁰For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? ¹¹So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. ¹²When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. ¹³Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

Both of these passages say pretty much the same thing: there are grey areas (i.e. "disputable matters" in Romans 14:1), it is left to the individual's conscience to decide whether taking part in these acts is sin (Romans 14:23, 1 Corinthians 8:7), but one should exercise extreme caution to not let one's freedom cause anyone to stumble (Romans 14:21, 1 Corinthians 8:13). While it might seem that Paul is actually saying that anything that could potentially cause someone to stumble, such as eating meat or drinking wine (Romans 14:21), is to be avoided, we must remember that Paul is the same one who recommends that Timothy should drink a little wine for his stomach's sake (1 Timothy 5:23).

To bring it all together, we must be aware of others' consciences and careful to not betray them, but to be ruled by the conscience of another is unhealthy, whether it leans toward license or legalism. The catalysts for my purges were the opinions and judgments of others: in my insecurity, I sought to do everything in my power to gain their respect and acceptance. I began to apply the wills of others to my life while claiming, and truly believing, that it was the will of God. (That isn't to say that some things did not need to be purged, but I did so for fear of man rather than reverence to God.) I allowed the interpretations of others to become authoritarian, usurping the authoritative text of the Bible.

Now, if the Bible says that it is sin, it is sin. If a conscience has no problem with something explicitly or implicitly condemned, then that conscience has proven to be unreliable. However, if a conscience declares something to be sin, it is also sin...for the possessor of that conscience. Having rules to live by that are supplemental to the Bible is not wrong, nor is it legalism. In fact, I would argue that it is immensely helpful. However, the true danger comes when we dare to judge what God has not.

To address a couple specifics of your post:

xfreakazoidx said:

Is playing these games bad? Yeah I guess so.

If this is your conscience convicting you, then there is no question that it is, indeed, bad for you to play them and a deeper inspection of your motives for doing so is needed. If you are parroting what you have been told, how you were raised, etc. then a deeper inspection of your own convictions is needed.

xfreakazoidx said:

Form everything I've read we are suppose to not be stupid about things. Aka, not live in a bubble. Yet thats what many thumpers tend to do.

Specifically, we are called to be wise as serpents and harmless/innocent as doves (Matthew 10:16). Similarly, we are in the world (John 17:11), but we are not to be of the world (John 17:15-16). We are to understand the workings of the enemy and the world around us, but this is so that we are able to remain distinct from sin and corruption and is not to be used as an excuse for one's sin. (Not saying that you are doing this; simply covering the bases.) It is for fear of doing so that many will try to forsake the world, as a whole.

[Sargus]

Crimian, on 30 July 2010 - 08:39 AM, said:

When I first signed up for an account on this site, I was around 17-18 (2003-2004) and one of the first things I did was condemn the people here who thought that there was nothing wrong with Harry Potter.

Heh. I forgot about that.

Personally, I play just about everything that comes down the pipeline (though, granted, that's becoming my job), but some things I've felt more uncomfortable about playing than other. For instance, I never played Manhunt, because the violence seemed a bit too over the top for me with not enough justifiable reason.

To me, other than Love and Salvation, God's greatest gift to humanity ever is imagination. I feel really disconnected with fellow Christians at the start and end to most modern church services, because I simply don't worship through singing. That's not what I do. I worship by creating, and I worship, in a way, by enjoying others' creations. Not only does this tend to help my own creative process, but it also feels like I'm doing something worthwhile. If I'm reading a book, watching a movie or playing a game, I always try to get something worthwhile out of it. It's harder for me to do that with music (not saying music is bad at all, it's just not my thing), so I don't spend much time at all listening to music. I get much more out of, say, playing a video game.

In a lot of ways, I can examine this stuff and work out how to best create something myself that glorifies God in the best way possible, but sometimes it's also just good for me to relish in the work of others. I'd prefer if today's media had less violence/language/sex, but I'm able to look past it pretty easily, personally. Not just in that "it doesn't bother me," but in that I honestly do not believe my physical or spiritual self is being harmed in the process.

It may seem weird, but that's how I operate. Sure, I typically get enjoyment out of playing games and they can be used to help me unwind or whatever, but through any violence or language that might be in a game, I look past it and find what I can get out of the experience that's worthwhile.

[_-Syniistr/Havok-_]

Sargus, on 30 July 2010 - 10:00 AM, said:

To me, other than Love and Salvation, God's greatest gift to humanity ever is imagination. I feel really disconnected with fellow Christians at the start and end to most modern church services, because I simply don't worship through singing. That's not what I do. I worship by creating, and I worship, in a way, by enjoying others' creations. Not only does this tend to help my own creative process, but it also feels like I'm doing something worthwhile. If I'm reading a book, watching a movie or playing a game, I always try to get something worthwhile out of it. It's harder for me to do that with music (not saying music is bad at all, it's just not my thing), so I don't spend much time at all listening to music. I get much more out of, say, playing a video game.

That's almost the exact same thing here with me, except I just have higher standards. A lot higher standards.

Sargus, on 30 July 2010 - 10:00 AM, said:

It may seem weird, but that's how I operate. Sure, I typically get enjoyment out of playing games and they can be used to help me unwind or whatever, but through any violence or language that might be in a game, I look past it and find what I can get out of the experience that's worthwhile.

Again, same here. My friend and I have been recently enjoying Rainbow Six Vegas 2, which drops a lot of f-bombs, but we have a bunch of fun just coordinating together than actually focusing on the negative content in the game.

Personally, I'm slightly insensitive to violence, but I don't like games with too much swearing because I have a little brother and I absolutely would not touch games with nudity. I feel that whenever swearing is added in a videogame, it tends to really serve no purpose except filler, and games that have sexual content seem to depend too much on sex in order to actually get buyers. As for violence, I've never sat well with games where you can be exploded into gory chunks.

[Evili]

There aren't many games I won't play because of their content. For me, the violence, sex, language, none of it really bothers me, and seeing the things on the screen doesn't make me feel like I have to imitate them in real life, which is, I think, the main point: if watching something "bad" makes you want to go do it, then, I think, it becomes sin.

*two cents*

[Red Five]

Sargus, on 30 July 2010 - 01:00 PM, said:

Heh. I forgot about that.

Personally, I play just about everything that comes down the pipeline (though, granted, that's becoming my job), but some things I've felt more uncomfortable about playing than other. For instance, I never played Manhunt, because the violence seemed a bit too over the top for me with not enough justifiable reason.

To me, other than Love and Salvation, God's greatest gift to humanity ever is imagination. I feel really disconnected with fellow Christians at the start and end to most modern church services, because I simply don't worship through singing. That's not what I do. I worship by creating, and I worship, in a way, by enjoying others' creations. Not only does this tend to help my own creative process, but it also feels like I'm doing something worthwhile. If I'm reading a book, watching a movie or playing a game, I always try to get something worthwhile out of it. It's harder for me to do that with music (not saying music is bad at all, it's just not my thing), so I don't spend much time at all listening to music. I get much more out of, say, playing a video game.

In a lot of ways, I can examine this stuff and work out how to best create something myself that glorifies God in the best way possible, but sometimes it's also just good for me to relish in the work of others. I'd prefer if today's media had less violence/language/sex, but I'm able to look past it pretty easily, personally. Not just in that "it doesn't bother me," but in that I honestly do not believe my physical or spiritual self is being harmed in the process.

It may seem weird, but that's how I operate. Sure, I typically get enjoyment out of playing games and they can be used to help me unwind or whatever, but through any violence or language that might be in a game, I look past it and find what I can get out of the experience that's worthwhile.

Not weird at all. I pretty much agree with everything you said. Imagination is an incredible gift, and we can further it through the creations of others. Though I love music and can be very affected by it. Video games, though, I still treat more as something just to entertain me for half an hour or so. Different strokes, I suppose.

[TheFollower]

Sargus pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. I'm not very much of a creator (although I do plan on writing something in the future), but I do highly enjoy experiencing the worlds that others have created. I have a peculiar knack for finding glimmers of God's truth in even the darkest stories. That's why I like survival horror games so much (Silent Hill 2 for instance, I actually see as a game of redemption and about facing up to one's sins).

I believe that the most important thing is that if we exclude language and sexuality from any form of art, we are in essence lying to the world. It's important for us to present the world the way it is, and then show the hope that God can give in such a dark world as this one.

[xfreakazoidx]

I was thinking about this more. If a christian opposes nudity,swearing and violence....what would they do if they created a bible movie? This would be like NC-17 movie! What would a christian say then? I've asked this to some others and some say theres nothing wrong with it because its the bible. Other think its wrong even if its the bible.

[Red Five]

xfreakazoidx, on 11 August 2010 - 01:28 AM, said:

I was thinking about this more. If a christian opposes nudity,swearing and violence....what would they do if they created a bible movie? This would be like NC-17 movie! What would a christian say then? I've asked this to some others and some say theres nothing wrong with it because its the bible. Other think its wrong even if its the bible.

As far as I'm concerned, my same answer would apply--yes if it benefits, no if it doesn't.
Freakazoid, I applaud the fact that you are thinking about this, but I have noticed something here--and please do not assume that I'm trying to judge you, because that is not my intention and because it's hard to get certain information from a forum post anyway. But it seems to me that while you are thinking about these issues, the two or three threads you've posted suggest to me you're only thinking about them in one direction. You have a certain perspective on the issue here, and it sometimes seems you're more interested in reinforcing it than you are in coming to the actual, correct answer.
Just keep in mind that it is important to understand opposing arguments. It is important to listen to them, put yourself in their shoes, and try to see why they think the way they do. It truly is the only way we grow.
And again, I'm not criticizing you. For all I know, that's exactly what you're doing. It's just that your posts don't always imply this.

[xfreakazoidx]

Its all good. Yeah I always think of something for different points of views. It would be pretty ignorant if I didn't. I should try and post things differently so people see this.

[Person]

xfreakazoidx, on 11 August 2010 - 05:28 AM, said:

I was thinking about this more. If a christian opposes nudity,swearing and violence....what would they do if they created a bible movie? This would be like NC-17 movie! What would a christian say then? I've asked this to some others and some say theres nothing wrong with it because its the bible. Other think its wrong even if its the bible.

While this is a tough question to answer, I'll just point out 2 things about it.
First, there aren't any actual swears in the Bible, they're merely referred to.
Second, does anyone think there's a difference to merely reading about graphic acts as opposed to actually watching them on a screen?
For example, what would be the whole point of this website, if to read about the games I could buy, was as bad as playing them?

[Red Five]

xfreakazoidx, on 11 August 2010 - 11:00 AM, said:

Its all good. Yeah I always think of something for different points of views. It would be pretty ignorant if I didn't. I should try and post things differently so people see this.

Good. Just keep in mind that the answers to the questions we ask aren't always ones we like.

[Sargus]

While looking at quotes by my hero, C.S. Lewis, searching for his thoughts on a completely different topic, I stumbled across this quote of his:

"An individual Christian may see fit to give up all sorts of things for special reasons - marriage, or meat, or beer, or cinema; but the moment he starts saying the things are bad in themselves, or looking down his nose at other people who do use them, he has taken the wrong turning."

Something to think about.