[SeriousGamer]

I'm curious, is there actually something in the Bible that talks about this? Something I wondered is do children go to Hell. Personally, I believe the answer is yes. Whenever God poured out His wrath on the world, like with the Flood and Sodom, He spared no one. Every man, woman, and child alike died. Wouldn't He likewise have sent them all to Hell also? When God told His people to destroy the peoples of the land, He told them to spare no one, not even the children.

Plus, the Bible even says, "All have sinned." It doesn't exempt anyone from that. We're born with a sinful nature, and I took that to mean that we're born into sin the minute we're born. Since God will judge and condemn those who do not accept salvation, doesn't that mean that applies to ANYONE?

Now, you may say, "But God is a loving and merciful God." That may be true, but He is also just, and justice, true, justice does not grant exceptions. All are treated, and punished, equally. Don't we all deserve Hell? People are all evil, wicked, and undeserving of any love whatsoever. Doesn't the same thing apply to children? There are none who are innocent, emphasis on none.

So, where did we get the idea that somehow God will not hold a child responsible if they died before accepting salvation? As I said, justice offers no exceptions. If an adult who has never heard the Gospel before dies, God will condemn that person. Just because that person never heard the Word, that doesn't make such a person innocent. So, how can there be an exception in a child's case?

[JadesFire]

(And here I thought this was going to be on Baptism!)

You're right, there's no biblical justification for an "age of accountability".

On the subject of children dying in infancy or at a young age, the Bible is just as silent. People point to what David said when *his* infant son died -- I can't remember the passage off the top of my head. It's disputed, however, whether he meant that he would actually *see* his son in Heaven or whether he meant that their bodies would lie in rest together.

It's best not to pry too far into mystery, but the standard Reformed response is that all elect children will go to Heaven. Who those elect children are, we don't comment on, since we can't know. We trust in God's mercy while acknowledging that He is just, and that we are all, as you said, deserving of Hell.

It's a mystery, basically.

[Luinnar]

There is Matthew 18:1-6 and Matthew 18:10.

Quote

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

He called a little child and had him stand among them. And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

“And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

...

"See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Though I do agree with what Jade said and that we don't know for sure, but must trust in God's mercy.

[TheFollower]

Luinnar, on 05 September 2009 - 12:43 AM, said:

I don't think there's an answer to this, other than trusting in God's justice, mercy, and love, and Jesus' obvious love for the innocence of Children. I have to disagree with JadesFire, as I don't believe in the Elect and non-elect. Personally, I believe God will take every child to Heaven.

[SeriousGamer]

Justice would seem the opposite of mercy however. Justice at times is heartless; mercy has a heart.

I still hold that God spares no one who does not put their faith in Jesus, even if they are very young. As I said, God did not even spare young ones when he destroyed Sodom. If He did not spare them in life, why should they be spared in the afterlife?

Quote

I don't think there's an answer to this, other than trusting in God's justice, mercy, and love, and Jesus' obvious love for the innocence of Children. I have to disagree with JadesFire, as I don't believe in the Elect and non-elect. Personally, I believe God will take every child to Heaven.

You can love a person, but still have to turn them away. Just because you love someone that doesn't mean you'll save them. I still say there is no innocence, even in children. We're all born evil beings. Just because some are too young to realize it, that doesn't make them any less guilty. In God's eyes, are we not all unworthy of His love and salvation?

I guess I do believe in the Elect and non-Elect, because I don't believe there is free will; we're all mindless creations without any will of our own, simply doing whatever God wishes for us. But that's another subject altogether.

[JadesFire]

The debate over the existence of the elect and non-elect only exists if you would dispute Scripture's clear teachings on the subject (do a search for the word "elect" on a Bible search site if you would dispute this). The debate is not whether an elect group exists, but over how that group is defined, or how the elect exists.

...But that's a debate for another topic.

God is just in his grace because of the cross. On the cross, He poured out His wrath on His son. Our sins were imputed to Christ, and Christ's righteousness is then imputed to the believer. Mercy comes into it in that Christ became incarnate at all.

Luinnar, I don't think those verses are teaching about an age of accountability, because the doctrine of the age of accountability teaches that there is an age at which one becomes accountable for one's sin, and that before that age, one is not. This, however, is false, because Scripture is clear that we are all sinful, from conception even. (David -- "In sin my mother conceived me", Ps. 51)

The ordinary means of salvation is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17); however, God may save people through extraordinary means, as well. Thus, we teach that elect infants who die in infancy are saved.

If it were otherwise, we would have to say that everyone is "saved" from birth, and then become "unsaved" when they reach a certain age, and that, too, goes against Scripture's teachings.

[SeriousGamer]

JadesFire, on 04 September 2009 - 08:57 PM, said:

The ordinary means of salvation is that faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ (Rom. 10:17); however, God may save people through extraordinary means, as well. Thus, we teach that elect infants who die in infancy are saved.

God may, but I doubt He will. As I said, justice treats everyone equally, no exceptions.

I suppose I sound cold and heartless for saying so.

[Crimian]

Justice also acknowledges that certain people, even if they have broken the law, cannot possibly be held accountable for their actions because they lack the ability to understand what they are doing. There is a reason that the death penalty is not given to minors, the mentally underdeveloped, and the mentally ill. In the case of very young children: someone who cannot comprehend that they exist, cannot possibly comprehend the difference between right and wrong. It's similar to the question of what happens to those that are never given a chance to accept Christ. A god that would damn someone to eternal punishment for not living long enough to develop the mental capacity to think beyond the concepts they were raised with, or even long enough to realize they exist (much less anyone divine), is a god that I would refuse to serve, even if I was convinced it existed.

God is not just justice, he is also mercy.

[TheFollower]

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 05:03 AM, said:

Justice also acknowledges that certain people, even if they have broken the law, cannot possibly be held accountable for their actions because they lack the ability to understand what they are doing. There is a reason that the death penalty is not given to minors, the mentally underdeveloped, and the mentally ill. In the case of very young children: someone who cannot comprehend that they exist, cannot possibly comprehend the difference between right and wrong. It's similar to the question of what happens to those that are never given a chance to accept Christ. A god that would damn someone to eternal punishment for not living long enough to develop the mental capacity to think beyond the concepts they were raised with, or even long enough to realize they exist (much less anyone divine), is a god that I would refuse to serve, even if I was convinced it existed.

God is not just justice, he is also mercy.

Amen. I will agree with this.

The Bible has many answers to many questions, but I don't believe that it holds them all, as it was written by humans, and is thus possibly open to falsity. Furthermore, there are numerous interpretations of the Bible that are held. If we confine God to the Bible, and the Bible alone, and assert that he's not capable of working outside of it, and that we know everything, isn't that somewhat blasphemous in itself?

The doctrine of the elect and banishing children who have no concept of evil to Hell is cold and heartless, and I refuse to believe a God of Love would do such a thing.

[SeriousGamer]

TheFollower, on 04 September 2009 - 11:50 PM, said:

Amen. I will agree with this.

I would like to agree with it myself.

TheFollower, on 04 September 2009 - 11:50 PM, said:

The doctrine of the elect and banishing children who have no concept of evil to Hell is cold and heartless, and I refuse to believe a God of Love would do such a thing.

But God didn't spare anyone during the Flood. He even told the Israelites not to spare children when they entered the promised land; children that probably had no idea that the practices of their parents were offensive to God. Wouldn't you say that if they were not spared God's judgement physically, that they were also judged spiritually?

The idea of there being an elect is one I can understand, but not as heartless. Since God knows every move we make, even the keystrokes I'm going to use, He also knows who will and who will not accept Him. So, wouldn't you say that unless God chooses a person, they will never come to know Him?

TheFollower, on 04 September 2009 - 11:50 PM, said:

Furthermore, there are numerous interpretations of the Bible that are held. If we confine God to the Bible, and the Bible alone, and assert that he's not capable of working outside of it, and that we know everything, isn't that somewhat blasphemous in itself?

You raise a good point. Yes, there are many ways to interpret the Bible. Some can take one portion and make one claim and someone else can make another claim with those same verses.

I have to take some offence to that. I don't confine God to the Bible. I also don't claim to know everything. Believe me, I don't pretend to know everything.

I suppose it also comes with how we think of God. Most would call Him a Loving Father. I look at Him more as a Mighty King to be revered and even feared for what He may do if you displease Him. Most ephasize His love. I look more at His wrath and anger and think we're lucky He made salvation possible at all.

[Crimian]

Quote

But God didn't spare anyone during the Flood. He even told the Israelites not to spare children when they entered the promised land; children that probably had no idea that the practices of their parents were offensive to God. Wouldn't you say that if they were not spared God's judgement physically, that they were also judged spiritually?

No, I wouldn't at all. Physical death does not last forever. The only way I've ever seen for the slaughter of children in the OT to be justified is if he extended mercy to them in death. This is how I see it: if all of them were not killed, then there would be a remnant of the followers of the foreign god, perhaps allowing the belief to seep into the beliefs of him (as happened when the Israelites began to worship YHWH as one of the ba'alim). He, of course, did not want this to happen. Even if it didn't, the children would eventually grow up and realize what had happened, and would probably become extremely bitter against YHWH, cursing him warring against his people. He would thus have been protecting the children from themselves and their own, perhaps inevitable, reactions in the material world.

Quote

I suppose it also comes with how we think of God. Most would call Him a Loving Father.

Jesus was part of that most, and told us to pray to the Father as such.

Quote

I look at Him more as a Mighty King to be revered and even feared for what He may do if you displease Him. Most ephasize His love. I look more at His wrath and anger and think we're lucky He made salvation possible at all.

Take love out of the picture, then. Right now, God is just justice. If we, with our fallible, finite minds, have enough sense to know that it is not just to judge everyone equally, regardless of circumstances, (the US justice system distinguishes between the accountable and the unaccountable, the intentional and the unintentional, etc.) then why is it a stretch to believe that God, who is actually able to look into the hearts and minds of every single person, would make the same distinction?

I'm curious: when do you believe that life begins: conception, birth, sometime in-between? If you believe it happens at conception, then God would be sending aborted/miscarried babies to hell. If they are alive, they are going to hell unless they accept Christ, right?

[Red Five]

TheFollower, on 04 September 2009 - 09:05 PM, said:

I don't think there's an answer to this, other than trusting in God's justice, mercy, and love, and Jesus' obvious love for the innocence of Children. I have to disagree with JadesFire, as I don't believe in the Elect and non-elect. Personally, I believe God will take every child to Heaven.

Not to sound uneducated here, but what are the elect and the non-elect? And what is the biblical basis for the belief?

[JadesFire]

Red Five, on 05 September 2009 - 06:58 AM, said:

Not to sound uneducated here, but what are the elect and the non-elect? And what is the biblical basis for the belief?

Biblical basis for the belief of the existence of these groups. The elect are God's chosen people, nothing more. We do not ask, "Am I elect?" Instead, we look to the Cross.

[SeriousGamer]

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 07:15 AM, said:

Physical death does not last forever. The only way I've ever seen for the slaughter of children in the OT to be justified is if he extended mercy to them in death.

But whenever God commanded it or poured it out on the world, the people were often too wicked. And as I said, we are all born sinners. Since God won't permit anything unholy in His presence, wouldn't He have to judge that sin?

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 07:15 AM, said:

This is how I see it: if all of them were not killed, then there would be a remnant of the followers of the foreign god, perhaps allowing the belief to seep into the beliefs of him (as happened when the Israelites began to worship YHWH as one of the ba'alim). He, of course, did not want this to happen. Even if it didn't, the children would eventually grow up and realize what had happened, and would probably become extremely bitter against YHWH, cursing him warring against his people. He would thus have been protecting the children from themselves and their own, perhaps inevitable, reactions in the material world.

I would call it counting them among their people. Their people practiced evil, so there was be nothing left of them. Then again, salvation wasn't even possible yet, so who knows where He sent them after they died.

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 07:15 AM, said:

Jesus was part of that most, and told us to pray to the Father as such.

Touche. Of course, Jesus Himself showed a great deal of anger towards those who did not believe in Him. (the current religous leaders) He didn't speak to them in love; He spoke to them in anger. But this is a subject for another time.

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 07:15 AM, said:

Take love out of the picture, then. Right now, God is just justice. If we, with our fallible, finite minds, have enough sense to know that it is not just to judge everyone equally, regardless of circumstances, (the US justice system distinguishes between the accountable and the unaccountable, the intentional and the unintentional, etc.) then why is it a stretch to believe that God, who is actually able to look into the hearts and minds of every single person, would make the same distinction?

Touche again, but I'd also like to mention this. Somewhere in the OT, when they were bringing the Ark back and one of the animals stumbled, a man was struck down by God for touching the Ark. I'm sure his intentions were the best they could be, he probably didn't want the Ark to fall. But God allowed no exceptions and killed the man. He allowed only the Levites to handle the Ark. Was there an exception then? Now, I'll admit we don't know if the man was condemned for it.

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 07:15 AM, said:

I'm curious: when do you believe that life begins: conception, birth, sometime in-between? If you believe it happens at conception, then God would be sending aborted/miscarried babies to hell. If they are alive, they are going to hell unless they accept Christ, right?

I believe life happens at conception. And I have considered that.

[Crimian]

Quote

...so who knows where He sent them after they died.

This is exactly what I'm getting at. We don't know, because the Bible is silent on the issue. There are things that God deemed as unnecessary for us to know. What does God's breath smell like? What were David's first words? Is Michael really the only archangel (he's the only one called such in the Bible)? More pressingly, does everyone who commits suicide go to hell? Plenty of people believe so, and some even point to it as "the unpardonable sin" (and are then unsurprisingly unable to back up that claim in any way).

What of someone who is a Christian, and in a moment of despair, overdoses on pills, then regrets the decision and repents, only to die as a consequence of their previous actions? They still committed suicide, and there are plenty who would say they are going to hell. The Bible, however, is silent on the issue, much like on whether or not there is an age/maturity level of accountability. If it had denied that all those that commit suicide go to hell, then the discussions would instead be on what circumstances God will pardon it. Even worse, it might cause someone to become convinced that, in their present situation, God would allow them into heaven if they killed themselves, do so, and rob themselves and others of the plan God had for them.

Likewise, if the Bible confirmed that there was an age or maturity level of accountability, then the discussion we're having would instead be about how to know when one has or hasn't reached it. In another "even worse" scenario: there have been parents that have been so worried that their children would abandon God later in life that they killed them in a misguided effort to protect them from hellfire. If the Bible confirmed an age of accountability, how many more parents (of less than stellar psychological makeup) would find themselves convinced that they must murder their children before they reach the age of accountability?

To go back to a rather hokey acronym that someone made a number of years ago: the Bible is our Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. It doesn't contain knowledge of the entire universe, only what God deemed important for us to know. He included and excluded exactly what he meant to. That means that no amount of speculation and supposition will ever allow us to come to the absolute truth of the matter, only our own best guesses.

That being said, it isn't a matter of God being justice, God being mercy, or even God being both of them. Justice, mercy, righteousness, love, etc. are all him. A god that would condemn a child to eternal separation from him, much less eternal torment, because it died before being able to take its first breath is not only devoid of any love, but devoid of justice, as well. In fact, I would argue that such a god would be evil.

That's where I believe extraordinary means of salvation, as JadesFire put it, come in. Whether that is God, in his omniscience, knowing whether or not someone would eventually have accepted him and going with that, an age or maturity level of accountability, or perhaps even an explanation we could not even fathom, I don't pretend to know.

This post has been edited by Crimian: 05 September 2009 - 09:29 PM

[SeriousGamer]

Crimian, on 05 September 2009 - 04:25 PM, said:

This is exactly what I'm getting at. We don't know, because the Bible is silent on the issue. There are things that God deemed as unnecessary for us to know. What does God's breath smell like? What were David's first words? Is Michael really the only archangel (he's the only one called such in the Bible)? More pressingly, does everyone who commits suicide go to hell? Plenty of people believe so, and some even point to it as "the unpardonable sin" (and are then unsurprisingly unable to back up that claim in any way).

What of someone who is a Christian, and in a moment of despair, overdoses on pills, then regrets the decision and repents, only to die as a consequence of their previous actions? They still committed suicide, and there are plenty who would say they are going to hell. The Bible, however, is silent on the issue, much like on whether or not there is an age/maturity level of accountability. If it had denied that all those that commit suicide go to hell, then the discussions would instead be on what circumstances God will pardon it. Even worse, it might cause someone to become convinced that, in their present situation, God would allow them into heaven if they killed themselves, do so, and rob themselves and others of the plan God had for them.

Likewise, if the Bible confirmed that there was an age or maturity level of accountability, then the discussion we're having would instead be about how to know when one has or hasn't reached it. In another "even worse" scenario: there have been parents that have been so worried that their children would abandon God later in life that they killed them in a misguided effort to protect them from hellfire. If the Bible confirmed an age of accountability, how many more parents (of less than stellar psychological makeup) would find themselves convinced that they must murder their children before they reach the age of accountability?

To go back to a rather hokey acronym that someone made a number of years ago: the Bible is our Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. It doesn't contain knowledge of the entire universe, only what God deemed important for us to know. He included and excluded exactly what he meant to. That means that no amount of speculation and supposition will ever allow us to come to the absolute truth of the matter, only our own best guesses.

That being said, it isn't a matter of God being justice, God being mercy, or even God being both of them. Justice, mercy, righteousness, love, etc. are all him. A god that would condemn a child to eternal separation from him, much less eternal torment, because it died before being able to take its first breath is not only devoid of any love, but devoid of justice, as well. In fact, I would argue that such a god would be evil.

That's where I believe extraordinary means of salvation, as JadesFire put it, come in. Whether that is God, in his omniscience, knowing whether or not someone would eventually have accepted him and going with that, an age or maturity level of accountability, or perhaps even an explanation we could not even fathom, I don't pretend to know.

Well said. Well said. I'd fame you for this, but it doesn't want to work for me.

You've made an excellent statement. I have nothing to say other than that really, except, I've good at admitting when I'm wrong.

I suppose things aren't as black and white as I'd like them to be. I always thought it easier to have things make sense when it's a matter of pure absolutes. But it doesn't always work that way; it can't work that way.