Sign In
Register
Help
This topic is locked
Theism Or the Lack Thereof...
#81
- Hello, my name is Mr. Snrub.
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1,575
- Joined: 10-July 07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:34 AM
Hey, since we're all whining about the voting system... Whoever downvoted me, I can't read your sharp and biting wit in the comment section, as it can't display that many characters. Maybe you should just say whatever you want to say out loud.
MultiQuote
#82
- Advanced Member
-
- Group: Banned
- Posts: 192
- Joined: 22-August 08
- Gender:Male
- Location:New Hampshire
Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:20 AM
Your mistakes and misunderstandings were elementary and i was honestly dissapointed in you - I would have thought you would have known better by now.
Regardless, you're dodging the main point.
Regardless, you're dodging the main point.
#83
- Hello, my name is Mr. Snrub.
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1,575
- Joined: 10-July 07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
Posted 29 August 2009 - 03:47 AM
Pixel_bro, on 28 August 2009 - 08:20 PM, said:
Your mistakes and misunderstandings were elementary and i was honestly dissapointed in you - I would have thought you would have known better by now.
Regardless, you're dodging the main point.
Regardless, you're dodging the main point.
You are SUCH a good little debater! Accusing others of dodging the main point, when you yourself are doing the exact same thing. Why bother addressing my points individually when you can just use thinly veiled personal attacks and condescendingly used big words to attempt to bewilder the other party. (Sadly done in vain I must say, I am immune to any and all attempts at confusion with the use of large words)
Baaaaack to the original subject here...
Quote
Say what you like, but that's nothing but a cop-out - an excuse. It answers no questions nor does it attempt to confront the issue, it's simply an illogical argument that attempts to confront logical arguments that disprove the validity of God and saying 'Oh; that's a contradiction. That can't be possible because God's existence is a given... I guess we just can't understand. He's God, after all'
It's nothing but a dead-end.
It's nothing but a dead-end.
How on earth is what I'm saying a dead end? You (and others) seem to think that we as humans are capable of understanding every concept, idea, subject, and item in the universe, especially at this point in time with our understanding of what we know. Human logic may seem to be the end-all of your level of thought and understanding; why would it be the end-all thought in the universe? Or that of an omnipotent God?
Science is filled with leaps of faith. Take for example mammal birthing process. The hormone Oxytocin is put out by the Pituitary gland at a certain time, which causes the baby to be born. We still do not know what exactly causes this process. But we accept it by faith, that the baby is going to come out when it is "done", due to this hormone. Since we do not understand the process of this, it does not make it a dead end, or something we should not continue to study. However, it IS a leap of faith and a mystery. The same thing can be said for black holes. It seems everyone agrees that they exist, but we have never really seen one. We have come to a consensus of their existence through observation. While not everyone agrees, we take the leap of faith.
Does this sound familiar? It's what all theists do. As I've shown then, a "leap of faith" is done by scientists every day.
I understand that the thought of a higher power is probably scary to you, and you'd rather not be bothered to follow someone who you consider to be just "A man in the sky". That's alright. That's your own leap of faith. There's no need to go around and and say that everyone else is completely wrong and simply "uninformed" and "in need of enlightenment".
#84
- Advanced Member
-
- Group: Banned
- Posts: 192
- Joined: 22-August 08
- Gender:Male
- Location:New Hampshire
Posted 29 August 2009 - 04:03 AM
Quote
You are SUCH a good little debater! Accusing others of dodging the main point, when you yourself are doing the exact same thing.
I have no need. Azurite already said everything I was going to say on the subject and that my downrep addressed. No need to jump to conclusions. I was dissapointed because I had hoped given your record you would be at least slightly more educated - at least enough not to make such a ridiculous claim.
And that wasn't the main point, it was nothing but a measly side comment - hence why it stayed in the downrep, until you decided to bring it out into the open.
Quote
But we accept it by faith, that the baby is going to come out when it is "done", due to this hormone.
No.
They accept it, because that is what we have witnessed and observed - that is what the evidence tells us happens. There is a big difference between faith and understanding.
Quote
Human logic may seem to be the end-all of your level of thought and understanding; why would it be the end-all thought in the universe? Or that of an omnipotent God?
I never said it was the end-all of the universe, much less that of an omnipotent God - rather, I was questioning the motivations and understanding behind the use of such an argument on its own. It answers no questions and is simply an admission of inability.
Quote
I understand that the thought of a higher power is probably scary to you, and you'd rather not be bothered to follow someone who you consider to be just "A man in the sky". That's alright. That's your own leap of faith. There's no need to go around and and say that everyone else is completely wrong and simply "uninformed" and "in need of enlightenment".
Oh please. Get off your theistic high-horse and don't be such a presumptious -censored- in regards to that which you cannot hope to know, much less understand.
I must reiterate once again - you do not understand atheists, or atheism. Stop trying to assume that you do.
#85
- Enthusiast
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1,080
- Joined: 17-August 07
- Gender:Male
- Location:CFB Suffield, AB
Posted 29 August 2009 - 04:19 AM
Quote
Science is filled with leaps of faith. Take for example mammal birthing process. The hormone Oxytocin is put out by the Pituitary gland at a certain time, which causes the baby to be born. We still do not know what exactly causes this process.
A quick little google check showed that yes, we do know what causes the process by which the infant is born, and Oxytocin's role in it.
Remember, there is a difference between a "leap of faith" in something naturalistic, and a leap of faith in something supernatural. Just because we don't know the answer now, doesn't mean that we never will.
As for my jab about the downrep system, I took issue with the fact that someone -1'ed me, saying that what I said was the most ignorant statement of the century, but they don't have the guts to come out and tell me why.
Seriously. Why does god create people who he knows he will eventually throw into hell? I'm HONESTLY looking for an answer here.
Remember, the onus is on you guys in regards to god. To be a skeptic, you must always assume that something does not exist unless evidence points to its existence. Hence, when I say that fairies exist, the onus is on me to prove that they exist. Hey, Answers in Genesis did admit that they believed that unicorns existed.
This post has been edited by Azurite: 29 August 2009 - 04:24 AM
#86
- Im from Kamchetka!
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1,235
- Joined: 10-July 07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Oregon
Posted 29 August 2009 - 04:57 AM
Azurite, on 28 August 2009 - 09:19 PM, said:
A quick little google check showed that yes, we do know what causes the process by which the infant is born, and Oxytocin's role in it.
Remember, there is a difference between a "leap of faith" in something naturalistic, and a leap of faith in something supernatural. Just because we don't know the answer now, doesn't mean that we never will.
As for my jab about the downrep system, I took issue with the fact that someone -1'ed me, saying that what I said was the most ignorant statement of the century, but they don't have the guts to come out and tell me why.
Seriously. Why does god create people who he knows he will eventually throw into hell? I'm HONESTLY looking for an answer here.
Remember, the onus is on you guys in regards to god. To be a skeptic, you must always assume that something does not exist unless evidence points to its existence. Hence, when I say that fairies exist, the onus is on me to prove that they exist. Hey, Answers in Genesis did admit that they believed that unicorns existed.
Remember, there is a difference between a "leap of faith" in something naturalistic, and a leap of faith in something supernatural. Just because we don't know the answer now, doesn't mean that we never will.
As for my jab about the downrep system, I took issue with the fact that someone -1'ed me, saying that what I said was the most ignorant statement of the century, but they don't have the guts to come out and tell me why.
Seriously. Why does god create people who he knows he will eventually throw into hell? I'm HONESTLY looking for an answer here.
Remember, the onus is on you guys in regards to god. To be a skeptic, you must always assume that something does not exist unless evidence points to its existence. Hence, when I say that fairies exist, the onus is on me to prove that they exist. Hey, Answers in Genesis did admit that they believed that unicorns existed.
He threw them or they chose to use their free will to ignore their creator, rejecting relationship. Without free will we would all serve God, but that's not really love, is it. Its all about the omniscience brodude. You want your children to make all the right choices and choose the right path, but will they always do it in an imperfect world? The answer is no, so I'm sorry as well as He is sorry that people choose to ignore Him daily.
#87
- Hello, my name is Mr. Snrub.
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1,575
- Joined: 10-July 07
- Gender:Male
- Location:Canada
Posted 29 August 2009 - 05:10 AM
Pixel_bro, on 28 August 2009 - 10:03 PM, said:
No.
They accept it, because that is what we have witnessed and observed - that is what the evidence tells us happens. There is a big difference between faith and understanding.
They accept it, because that is what we have witnessed and observed - that is what the evidence tells us happens. There is a big difference between faith and understanding.
This is where you are incorrect. You do NOT understand with observations. You can only come to theoretical conclusions or hypothesizes. There are no facts in science, just widely supported theories and hypothesizes. We can come to some certain belief in it, but at any given time, it can be shattered. You of all people should know this, as you've posted about it many times. Wikipedia has some good stuff on this in Epistemology and in more detail with the Gettier problem.
Quote
I never said it was the end-all of the universe, much less that of an omnipotent God - rather, I was questioning the motivations and understanding behind the use of such an argument on its own. It answers no questions and is simply an admission of inability.
An admission of inability is in the purest form, faith. We are unable to fully understand how the sun works, yet we daily have faith that it will continue to shine on for us.
Quote
I must reiterate once again - you do not understand atheists, or atheism. Stop trying to assume that you do.
Why is it that you are the wise one who understands both atheism and theism, yet I cannot understand atheism, in all its brilliant glory?
Quote
A quick little google check showed that yes, we do know what causes the process by which the infant is born, and Oxytocin's role in it.
I'm going to give that do a little more research before I reply to that, don't quite understand what the article is saying...
Quote
Remember, there is a difference between a "leap of faith" in something naturalistic, and a leap of faith in something supernatural. Just because we don't know the answer now, doesn't mean that we never will.
At what point do we stop investigating things because we think they are "supernatural"? From a certain viewpoint, any mysterious force that we cannot see could be "supernatural", such as wind patterns, or even gravity.
Quote
As for my jab about the downrep system, I took issue with the fact that someone -1'ed me, saying that what I said was the most ignorant statement of the century, but they don't have the guts to come out and tell me why.
Wasn't going after you with that.
Also, thank you for the downvote with the lovely comment "Get a clue." Your automatic assumption that I downvoted your post is just a baseless accusation. I haven't used the reputation system in weeks.
#88
- Advanced Member
-
- Group: Banned
- Posts: 192
- Joined: 22-August 08
- Gender:Male
- Location:New Hampshire
Posted 29 August 2009 - 05:22 AM
It had nothing to do with you downovoting my post; I could care less who did nor am I surprised it happened.
I downvoted it because of your false assumptions in regards to my nature.
Because, my friend, that is what you have shown. It is not through bias or assumption that I come to that conclusion, rather, you have given me the conclusion yourself - personally. With your comments, you have shown to me that you do not understand.
As Azurite mentioned above, there is a difference between supernatural and natural faith - natural faith is a faith that cause A results in effect A out of evidence and observation. It can be shattered and changed, of course - but that is ultimately the nature of faith. It does not mean it cannot be pursued, studied or understood.
Supernatural faith is a faith that is seperate from any observable, testable grounding.
Furthermore - the sun works on stellar nucleosynthesis.
You misunderstand - I mean that we come to an understanding that cause A results in effect B. It may be a primitive, and false understanding, but the relationship and correlation is generally understood to take place.
It isn't a full grasp and understanding OF the subject itself, but rather the existence of the subject.
And if there are no facts in Science, then honestly there are no facts anywhere and you might as well just submit to a wholly subjective reality.
EDIT----------
No offense intended, but I don't think you understood the entirety of the argument. Go back and read all of what he said, he explained how God's nature eliminates the possibility of free-will, so free-will isn't an answer here - which is exactly where his problem comes in, in that without free-will we have no choice whether we go to Hell or Heaven. It is entirely beyond our control.
I downvoted it because of your false assumptions in regards to my nature.
Quote
Why is it that you are the wise one who understands both atheism and theism, yet I cannot understand atheism, in all its brilliant glory?
Because, my friend, that is what you have shown. It is not through bias or assumption that I come to that conclusion, rather, you have given me the conclusion yourself - personally. With your comments, you have shown to me that you do not understand.
Quote
An admission of inability is in the purest form, faith. We are unable to fully understand how the sun works, yet we daily have faith that it will continue to shine on for us.
As Azurite mentioned above, there is a difference between supernatural and natural faith - natural faith is a faith that cause A results in effect A out of evidence and observation. It can be shattered and changed, of course - but that is ultimately the nature of faith. It does not mean it cannot be pursued, studied or understood.
Supernatural faith is a faith that is seperate from any observable, testable grounding.
Furthermore - the sun works on stellar nucleosynthesis.
Quote
This is where you are incorrect. You do NOT understand with observations. You can only come to theoretical conclusions or hypothesizes.
You misunderstand - I mean that we come to an understanding that cause A results in effect B. It may be a primitive, and false understanding, but the relationship and correlation is generally understood to take place.
It isn't a full grasp and understanding OF the subject itself, but rather the existence of the subject.
And if there are no facts in Science, then honestly there are no facts anywhere and you might as well just submit to a wholly subjective reality.
EDIT----------
Quote
He threw them or they chose to use their free will to ignore their creator, rejecting relationship. Without free will we would all serve God, but that's not really love, is it. Its all about the omniscience brodude. You want your children to make all the right choices and choose the right path, but will they always do it in an imperfect world? The answer is no, so I'm sorry as well as He is sorry that people choose to ignore Him daily.
No offense intended, but I don't think you understood the entirety of the argument. Go back and read all of what he said, he explained how God's nature eliminates the possibility of free-will, so free-will isn't an answer here - which is exactly where his problem comes in, in that without free-will we have no choice whether we go to Hell or Heaven. It is entirely beyond our control.
This post has been edited by Pixel_bro: 29 August 2009 - 05:26 AM
#89
- Enthusiast
-
- Group: Members
- Posts: 1,080
- Joined: 17-August 07
- Gender:Male
- Location:CFB Suffield, AB
Posted 29 August 2009 - 06:13 AM
Quote
I'm going to give that do a little more research before I reply to that, don't quite understand what the article is saying...
A little adult, so I'll spoil tag it. Hope I did this right. O_o
Spoiler
Quote
This is where you are incorrect. You do NOT understand with observations. You can only come to theoretical conclusions or hypothesizes. There are no facts in science, just widely supported theories and hypothesizes. We can come to some certain belief in it, but at any given time, it can be shattered. You of all people should know this, as you've posted about it many times. Wikipedia has some good stuff on this in Epistemology and in more detail with the Gettier problem.
Well...yes. In the revelation of new, stronger evidence, it can be shattered. But is that not a good thing? If there is evidence that monkeys cannot see the color blue, and then new evidence arises that monkeys can see blue, are we to just ignore the new evidence? No. Science doesn't work that way.
Faith, however, does. It ignores the evidence. You already have your conclusion, and no evidence to the contrary will change that mindset.
Quote
An admission of inability is in the purest form, faith. We are unable to fully understand how the sun works, yet we daily have faith that it will continue to shine on for us.
As pixel stated, we do have quite the understanding on how the sun works. And no, eventually, it won't shine down on us. Eventually it'll expand into a Red Giant and consume the planet, destroying it utterly.
Quote
At what point do we stop investigating things because we think they are "supernatural"? From a certain viewpoint, any mysterious force that we cannot see could be "supernatural", such as wind patterns, or even gravity.
When it is, by it's nature, untestable and unobservable. We can never test for god, or miracles, so it is supernatural. Wind patterns and gravity are two things that have been thoroughly tested and observed.
Quote
Wasn't going after you with that.
Also, thank you for the downvote with the lovely comment "Get a clue." Your automatic assumption that I downvoted your post is just a baseless accusation. I haven't used the reputation system in weeks.
Also, thank you for the downvote with the lovely comment "Get a clue." Your automatic assumption that I downvoted your post is just a baseless accusation. I haven't used the reputation system in weeks.
Not me, bud. I don't use that system. I think it's pretty stupid, to be honest.
Quote
He threw them or they chose to use their free will to ignore their creator, rejecting relationship. Without free will we would all serve God, but that's not really love, is it. Its all about the omniscience brodude. You want your children to make all the right choices and choose the right path, but will they always do it in an imperfect world? The answer is no, so I'm sorry as well as He is sorry that people choose to ignore Him daily.
Pixel nailed it. God would know that the people he created would reject him. He knows their choices and decisions before he even makes them. Thus, he knowingly creates people who he will eventually throw in hell. As pixel said, free will is not a satisfactory answer. So please stop using it. God, knowing the future perfectly, will know all the choices you make. You no longer have free will.
You, a Christian, seem to have no trouble downplaying the power of god. He would define what love, free will and servitude is. He could easily change it all to make much more sense.
#90
- Enthusiast
-
- Group: Staff Reviewer
- Posts: 1,506
- Joined: 01-October 08
- Gender:Male
- Location:Earth
Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:53 PM
I feel the need to be honest here, much as it's probably going to cause some people to downvote me.
The Christian side of this argument, the side that's supposed to be behaving like Christ, gets WAY too defensive/sarcastic/smug WAY too many times. Granted, both sides are doing this, but it seems like the Christian side is doing it even more. That bothers me, and I shouldn't have to explain why.
Seriously, is there any need for anger? It's just a debate. Rather, a discussion. Try to learn, not teach. I highly doubt anyone's mind is going to be changed here, no matter what anyone says.
The Christian side of this argument, the side that's supposed to be behaving like Christ, gets WAY too defensive/sarcastic/smug WAY too many times. Granted, both sides are doing this, but it seems like the Christian side is doing it even more. That bothers me, and I shouldn't have to explain why.
Seriously, is there any need for anger? It's just a debate. Rather, a discussion. Try to learn, not teach. I highly doubt anyone's mind is going to be changed here, no matter what anyone says.
